Strong Leaders Serve with Teri Schmidt

184. Leading with Cultural Humility with Dr. Joel Pérez

• Teri Schmidt

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What if leadership wasn’t about having the right answers, but about asking better questions? In this episode, Dr. Joel Pérez shares how cultural humility—not just cultural competency—can transform how we lead, build inclusive teams, and create lasting organizational change. We explore why humility is a leadership strength, how to move beyond perfectionism, and what it takes to lead with curiosity in today’s complex world. 

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Welcome back. What of the key to truly inclusive leadership isn't knowing more, but instead approaching others with less certainty? In today's episode of Strong Leaders Serve, I'm joined by Dr. Joel Perez, a dynamic executive and leadership coach, speaker and consultant who is reshaping how we think about leadership, belonging, and inclusion? Joel's work centers on cultural humility, a posture, not a destination, that empowers leaders to navigate complexity with openness, curiosity, and courage. He's also the author of Dear White Leader. How to achieve organizational excellence through cultural humility, A thought provoking guide that invites leaders to transform not only themselves, but the organizations and communities they serve. In this conversation, we dig into how cultural humility differs from cultural competency, why perfectionism can get in the way of true inclusion, and how leaders can cultivate a space where curiosity isn't just allowed. It's expected, so let's get into the conversation. I'm Terry Schmidt, executive and leadership coach at Strong Leaders Serve, where we work with compassionate driven leaders to transform potential into performance. And this is the Strong Leaders Serve podcast.

Teri Schmidt:

Well, welcome to the Strong Leaders Serve Podcast. Joel, it's so nice to have you on.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Yeah, it's great to be here. Thank you for having me on on the podcast, Terry. I really appreciate you making the time to, to have me on.

Teri Schmidt:

Of course, of course. It was, it was so fun to meet you and, and get to know you a little bit through Paul Sandbars Lego series play,

Dr. Joel Perez:

Mm-hmm.

Teri Schmidt:

workshop, and it was. Hilarious. As I mentioned to you that I had just been listening to you on Dave's Coaching for Leaders Podcast and then saw that you were gonna be there in the workshop in person, and just love the work that you are doing around cultural humility.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it's it. It's interesting how that happened and I too am very happy that I got, I got to meet you and got the invitation and went through the training with you and yeah, looking forward to this

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah. Well, excellent. Well, I'd love for you to just tell us a little bit about your story and how you came to be focused on cultural humility.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Yeah, that's a, that's a good question. And I first became familiar with the term in the mid two thousands. I was working at a college up in the Northwest and I heard someone speak and reference it, and it was new to me at the time. stuck with me, mainly because I had, I know this may be a question down the road. It stuck with me because I had always been wanting more than just cultural competency,

Teri Schmidt:

Mm

Dr. Joel Perez:

the term culture humility really resonated with me because I have always felt like competency. Competency infers that it's something to be achieved, whereas

Teri Schmidt:

mm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

humility felt to me like, oh, okay, this is a posture, this is something that can help you navigate the complexity. And that's what, you know, I talk about that in the book.

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

And it wasn't until I started, I was going through the coaching certification program. And, and I started thinking about like, you know, as we do when we go through those certification programs, those of you that are coaches and and that are listening, that you start thinking about your clients and your programs. I realized that I wanted to do something around cultural humility to help leaders who identify as white get better at navigate at just leading diverse teams. I

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

as Mexican American, Chicano, son of immigrants. Spanish was my first language. have never had a problem being in spaces where I am helping people get better as opposed to like not wanting to work with people who identify as white in this area. And I have colleagues who told me, they recognize themselves like, Joel, we're really happy you're doing that work. That's not the work that we wanna do. Right. And so I started coaching people. I called it culture, humility, coaching. And then as I was working with clients, I realized, you know what? I think there's a book here. I think there's a, I wanna get the word out to others than just my clients or the people that are interested in hiring me as a coach. so,

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

but going back to your original question, mid two thousands is when I became familiar with the term. Then over time I had done some research and really thinking more about it and then recognizing that competency for me was, felt limiting, but still extremely important to develop. And I call it, I reference it as the foundation towards

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

a posture of culture and humility. But I, but as I worked with people and done, when I speak and done workshops. The idea that cultural competency infers that it's something to be achieved really resonates with people and they too want, there has to be something more than just getting a certificate checking a box, which what, which is what sometimes it feels like to people when they hear the term competency.

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah. Yeah, that, that's such a good point. And the, the distinction between the two. Before I dig into that a little bit more, because I definitely have some. Things that I'd like to ask you to, to go a little bit deeper on, but I'd love to just, you know, hear a little bit more about the book. I had the opportunity to read it and love, love the approach as well. As, you know, the practical tips in it about, you know, these are the steps that you can take not only as an individual, but also. From a systems perspective, you know, that that needs to be in place. So I'd love for you to share, I've heard a little bit about the story kind of behind the book. Dear White Leader, I think it started as just one article, if I remember correctly, and, and then evolved into a book. But I'd love to hear a little bit more about that from your perspective.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Yeah, so the, the title itself and the whole idea of, of why also I wrote the, or really why I chose the title is after the murder of George Floyd, was not in a good place very angry, upset, and really felt like I needed to call out my colleagues and friends who identify as white, who are leaders who are in, in. Organizations and they have positions of influence really start helping change systems.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

and so I wrote a blog post with that title, dear White Leader, I talk about why I think it's important for, for white people to get engaged in this where particularly in that moment in history, which still of course applies to today. and so I wrote the blog post. then as I started thinking about writing this book around culture, humility, I really wanted my target audience to be people who identify as white leaders who are wanting to get better at leading work, inclusion work, creating a sense of belonging. I. And, and so that is what, you know, sort of the title. And then the, the work itself was, I, I knew cultural competency was important, and I, but I knew there was more to that and, and wanted to provide opportunities for, to learn how do you, how do you move from cultural competency to cultural humility? so I developed an online course. It's available on my website. That's not my ask at the end, but,

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

people wanna, wanna, it's a mini course. And

Teri Schmidt:

Great.

Dr. Joel Perez:

that process I got really excited and I wanted my doctoral advisor to share, you know, to write an endorsement for it.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

so I, I sent it to her. We then met for coffee and she looked at me and I tell the story in the book, and she, she looked at me. She said, this is a great goal that you're talking about things for individuals, but how does that impact the organization?

Teri Schmidt:

Mm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

it's not just about you. It's important for you to do the work,

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

how is it gonna lead to change, which is what's necessary

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

for PE, for organizations to become more inclusive. so I took that advice from her. And integrated that in the books. It's not just about, one of the aspects of cultural humility is self-awareness and self-critique, which is extremely important in the foundation, it's also about how do you change the organization that way I. Things are made better for everybody and, and I also believe not just organizations, but then our, our communities.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

in the book, and when I do, when I do these talks, I talk about that community isn't, community is broad. Meaning it's family, it's friends, it's faith communities, it's our volunteer organizations. So you start developing this posture, it. It's gonna bleed or grow into every aspect of your life that you're able to engage in these conversations. With this posture of culture, humility where you're seeking to understand versus seeking to convince. And so, but to back to your point, it was yes, the blog post. Yes. That's also what led, like, I think, I think there's a book here. I think I'm gonna

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

that. Not leverage, but take the experience. I'm, I am. I'm having because of the murder of George Floyd at the height of the pandemic, is that I really want to communicate to people the need for change as individuals and ultimately the organizations that we serve.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you, you do, do you do that so well in the book? I, I know there are a lot of books that focus on one or the other. But the way that you combine under this umbrella of cultural humility. I think it's really powerful.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Yep.

Teri Schmidt:

And you know, back to that cultural humility versus cultural competency. I love what you said about, you know, cultural competency feels almost like it's something to be achieved. Like you, you know, you get a certificate, you're competent. You, you've gotta gotta check in the box. And as I understand it, and I would love to hear more from your perspective about. How you understand and define cultural humility. But as I understand it, I think I heard you say cultural humility, you know, allows you to deal with the complexity that is culture. You know that I think a lot of times, you know, people are afraid because they're coming from that cultural competency angle of, I don't know everything about this person's culture. And then, you know, even though. They identify that certain way, they might not be like someone else who identifies the same way. And, and how do I deal with that? I don't wanna assume anything. And I think sometimes that gets people into a place of fear and avoidance. And as I understand it, cultural humility is a way out of that. So I'd love to hear from you more about that.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Yeah. It, it is. And I, I was doing a webinar and someone asked me why do I use the term humility. Why, why do I call it a posture?

Teri Schmidt:

Mm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

the way I described the way, what I, how I described it was that while the posture of culture, humility in, in my mind is you have open arms

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

to receive even when it's not necessarily positive things. And,

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

so it's about developing that posture because you're gonna be able to be nimble.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

things are gonna happen in your life that just like in anyone's life, happen in our lives where they don't go the way we think they're gonna go. People get angry at us. We make

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

And so having that posture allows you to, like, allows you to think of the mistakes as opportunities.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

grow. So I talk about, in, in the book, I talk about having a growth mindset, right? The

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Carol Dweck's done around growth

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

easy. but it's important because we, we are gonna make mistakes. all have inherent biases that we've learned over time.

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

one of the things I talk about is getting clear on your biases. Then it's not about it's about how do you mitigate their impact because they're not

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

You cannot eradicate bias. We all have biases, right?

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

and that posture is gonna help you and help the leader, the coach executive. Recognize, yeah. I'm gonna make mistakes. It's what do I do with those mistakes when they happen that's gonna help me be better. Right? That's

Teri Schmidt:

Right.

Dr. Joel Perez:

me become, I talk about becoming an exceptional leader.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

and because I think we as leaders I, from, I guess I'll speak for myself, I wanna keep getting better, right? I wanna improve my craft, it's not science per se, like they're just boxes that you check. It is an art, meaning it does take work making mistakes along the way, but the idea is, is growing from those mistakes or seeing the mistakes as opportunities to develop yourself, as well as developing the people around you. So the book it's, it's, you know, it's circular, self-awareness, self-critique, redressing power imbalances, organizational change. But it always goes back to self-awareness.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Because we're gonna make mistakes.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

and no matter how good we think we are, going to make mistakes. But it's, and just with leadership, right? Those of you who are listening, who are leaders, you know you're gonna make mistakes and you do make mistakes. There's not a perfect leader, but it's what you do with those mistakes that make you a, that make you a better leader and a leader that people want to want to follow.

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So I, I guess just to level set, you know, for anyone who's not familiar with cultural competency, how would that differ? You know, if we were to distinguish between those two, in your mind, how do they differ cultural competency and cultural humility? I.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Yeah, the, the main difference is, is really, I mean, again, I would say to answer your question the main difference or the difference is that competency is a mindset that people have, meaning they've, they, they are like, I just want to get to from point A to point B culture. Humility is yes, you start at point A, but there is no point B because society has changed and will continue to change. Competency. So it's, so I would say the different, going back, the difference is mindset. Meaning that competency is that check a box. I attended a course, I read a book. Culture. Humility is this Posture because we know that complexity happens and things aren't stagnant, right?

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

so we're always growing.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

So it's really a mindset, although there are aspects of competency that with humility, particularly around the self-awareness piece. So developing cultural self-awareness important in competency and culture, humility,

Teri Schmidt:

Mm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

there's aspects that you talk about when you're doing cultural competency courses or whatever about changing the

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Culture. Humility really, I believe, allows you to go deeper you are thinking about how you do change the system in a way that's gonna bring about meaningful change. Competency, although the Terry Crosses associates did a good job of laying the foundation organizational change. But I think the work of Travon and Garcia around culture, humility, I think provides a deeper way to think about changing the system so You're able to be nimble

Teri Schmidt:

yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

society is ever changing as

Teri Schmidt:

Right.

Dr. Joel Perez:

hard, as hard as that may be for certain people.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

is that things continue to shift and change, and we have to learn how to adapt the way we lead based on the communities we serve and will will serve into the future.

Teri Schmidt:

Right, right. And, and those communities are complex and you took the word outta my mouth that, you know, need to be nimble. I, and I know you acknowledged cultural competency as kind of a foundation, almost like a, a base knowledge. But then that humility on top of that is, does enable you to adapt to the complexity that is all around us so that you can be nimble and, exude that same care for people. That probably drove you to explore cultural competency in the beginning.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Yeah, yeah,

Teri Schmidt:

Excellent.

Dr. Joel Perez:

in, in the book, I tell a story about how our 17-year-old came out to us,

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

I really did at that moment recognize that what I learned 15 years ago as a. Parent who is culturally competent that I wasn't ready for the shift for us as parents in creating space for them to explore their identities.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

what I was taught 15 years ago was when society was in a very different place than where it is now. And having that posture has allowed me to recognize that and also acknowledge, like we've talked about already, is I'm gonna make mistakes.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

my child.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

to say the wrong thing, but what do I, how do I learn from that? And, you know, learning how to apologize and those, and that's really, really important when it comes

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

affirming people's identities.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

So that you can create the space or so that we can create space for Jaden to grow in their own identity without feeling like they have to conform to what we want them to conform to.

Teri Schmidt:

Right,

Dr. Joel Perez:

Mm-hmm.

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah. Yeah. And that is such a powerful posture

Dr. Joel Perez:

Mm-hmm.

Teri Schmidt:

for life, really

Dr. Joel Perez:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Teri Schmidt:

applies to, applies to so many different situations. You know, another thing that probably applies to more than just, talking about culture, but is, you talk about perfectionism and you talk about that being one of the characteristics that makes it difficult for organizations to be more inclusive.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Yeah.

Teri Schmidt:

So I'd, I'd love to hear more about how that relates to cultural humility.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Yeah. So in, in the book I talk about, we talk about self-awareness, self-critique, and in the second phase or second is redressing power imbalances, right? As we begin to recognize that. There are gaps in our organization, right? So learning how to look at data particularly if you want to create a more inclusive organization that meets the needs of all the key stakeholders that we serve. But I also talk about these feelings of estrangement,

Teri Schmidt:

And,

Dr. Joel Perez:

the opposite of a sense of belonging. And one of them

Teri Schmidt:

mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

as a, as a characteristic or as a component of feelings of estrangement. I, I was, I mean, I, I've been guilty of this before. I want things to be

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

want people to work a certain way, and the reality is that no one's perfect, right? Yet we've been conditioned to want, want people to be perfect or things to be perfect. and so when someone makes a mistake, focus on the mistake. And sometimes that means for some people it means. Belittling an employee, thinking less of them because they, they messed up. But a reframe is, so instead of focusing on the mistake and making that person feel bad about their decision, what if we came along with what if we came alongside with them and created a learning opportunity for them to get better?

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

And, and wanting them to experiment. So the, the, of the things that I've heard and people talk about is Pixar has been really successful because they allow people to, to experiment, to try different things. They bring a lot of different people into the conversation. Companies that you would consider innovative allow for that space, for people to try things and not be afraid of being, you know, if they, if they make a mistake.

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

and we as leaders need to be better at creating that space, that sense of belonging opposed to feelings of estrangement.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

really important. And I'm not saying that you don't keep people accountable, so I don't want people to

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

what I'm saying. If there needs to be accountability, then there needs to be accountability. But we need, we as leaders need to let go our desire to, to of, of our desire for people to be perfect,

Teri Schmidt:

Right, right.

Dr. Joel Perez:

for things to be perfect.

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

earlier, we're gonna make mistakes. We are not perfect people. are not

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

And so that's why perfectionism can get in the way of developing this, this posture of cultural humility, because

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

holding onto this idea that people and things need to be perfect in order for us to be successful. And the reality is, no, we're gonna make mistakes. We need to try different things. So it's creating that space for people and for us to try things knowing that we may. Do the wrong thing, but again, do we do with that mistake so we can get better?

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it is such a great reminder because it it, it does definitely limit that growth mindset that you spoke about. And, you know, I think, as I think about our listeners, they are compassionate driven leaders. So they care deeply about people. And I think that. Quest for perfectionism is particularly powerful in the cultural aspects. So if they tend to, if they identify as white or are in some other place of power,

Dr. Joel Perez:

Mm-hmm.

Teri Schmidt:

know, their desire to not say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing, that might offend someone.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Mm-hmm.

Teri Schmidt:

And to be perfect in that way. And I know I'm talking more now on the individual, but I, I just see that as being very powerful. And, and can keep people in a place of fear and avoidance and, and just not wanting to explore it, and then you don't get the benefit and, you know, have the curiosity with people to learn about them and value from their unique perspectives.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Yeah. And, and in the book, and, and when I do the, when I do workshops when I speak, trying to get people to understand that you what's happened, I, in our society, in our organizations is, is we, we don't allow people who are curious that are in the middle

Teri Schmidt:

Mm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

explore because they're afraid that they're gonna be labeled one thing or another, or allowing the extremes to influence. And, I acknowledge that, you know, as a man of color have been doing diversity work for a long time. was on one extreme or have been on one extreme or the other. And if I hear someone from the other extreme early on in my career, I would, label them right

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

wouldn't really wanna listen to them. which then creates it, it then creates environment where people then isolate themselves because they're afraid to

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

So as organizations., Or as leaders of organizations, we need to create space. For exploration and asking questions, and that's gonna

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

have a better understanding so that they can be better as opposed to just shutting down and isolating themselves and like, Nope, it's that fixed mindset. I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing if I do anything that's gonna offend someone, just, I'm just, I'm not, I'm not, I don't want that for myself, so I'd rather just not say anything at all.

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

where I, I believe that's become problematic with our society

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

we

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

for space for conversation because we're afraid of, of saying the wrong thing. And,

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

And that's, you know, that, that, that could be detrimental to the, this this goal of creating a sense of belonging, the psychological safety that our organizations need.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. And you know, I I think that I. Ability of leaders to create that space where people can be curious and, and feel safe doing that. And I see the book Seek Behind You as well. We, we studied that for, for one of our book club sessions. Great, excellent book. But I, you know, I think that feeling that safety to be curious is something that. Is difficult to foster in yourselves, but even, you know, perhaps more difficult to foster in a team. So I'm curious what you've seen leaders, do you know, what steps have they taken that has enabled them to be curious themselves but also set up that environment where it is safe for a team to be curious as it relates to cultural humility?

Dr. Joel Perez:

Yeah, that's a good question. So in my coaching with leaders, we talk about, I coach around helping the leader get learn how to be curious, right?

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

what's on my shirt,

Teri Schmidt:

Oh, it's on your shirt. Well, yes.

Dr. Joel Perez:

by ask, learning how to ask themselves questions. Like what am I not listening to myself today?

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Why do I find this challenging? And then from a leadership or supervision standpoint is what can you do when you're, when you're supervising someone who, who is making mistakes or not following through of being really directive? Are is there, is, are there open-ended questions you can ask to get a better sense of that person? Like why they took that approach?

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

I have discovered as leaders start applying those concepts is they come back and say to me, was really good. Like, I learned so much. And even though the, even though it was a mistake or that person needs to get better, it was a different, the tone of the conversation was different

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

if I were to just tell them, if you're not on time, the next time I'm gonna fire you. Right?

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

example, right.

Teri Schmidt:

Sure.

Dr. Joel Perez:

And so when they've applied what we've coached around, they come back and report, oh, this is great. And what that does in the organization, or at least in their, vertical or their area, is that people then begin to like, Joel actually really wants to know about me. And, and, and, and he's, he's curious. And the one thing I do stress that's really important is that leaders. Preface that they're going to be curious and they're gonna ask questions not sure their, their people know. It's not that they're being judgemental. They're

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

in creating that environment. So they do that before they have to ask questions so

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

someone doesn't go, why are you asking me that question? Like are

Teri Schmidt:

Right.

Dr. Joel Perez:

me? Or, and so that's really important. And so we, you know, I coach around that. But once they report, starting to apply, this curiosity, learning, they can see the learning start, start to happen in the people that they lead.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

It leads the people they lead to recognize that they, they can get better. And I am, I'm gonna be I the employee more feel safety in sharing with my boss when I make mistakes,

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

hiding the mistakes and that then bleeds out into the overall team. The other thing, I was working with an executive director. And we're talking about their team meetings. and I said, so are there questions that you can ask one to preface of the curiosity piece you're working through an agenda or are there things you can ask about certain, are there things you can ask, depending on the topic? they then again, going back, they started applying it and like their team then started showing up differently. Right,

Teri Schmidt:

Interesting.

Dr. Joel Perez:

that the leader really wants to know for it's coming from a genuine place,

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

it's about getting better as a team so they can meet their, their team goals and their organizational goals,

Teri Schmidt:

Right, right. What would, what would be some examples of, of questions that. You've seen leaders utilize in in specific situations, if there are any, you can share.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Yeah. Well I was working with the client today and she's got a difficult employee who is very demanding. And one of the questions we landed on, or previously that we landed on is'cause as the, as the leader, particularly one that you, a leader who really likes to serve their people. When people come to us and ask us that they want certain things, we you know, either say yes or no, which sometimes doesn't go over well. So the posture of what, what we train, what we coached around was how can you be curious in those moments, right? You wanna listen to the person.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

this is an extreme example. Well, it, someone comes to you and they want a raise, right?

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

which is very common, right? Yeah.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

For you, the leader to say, I hear you. What the question we land on, what if I can't give you what you want?

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

the reality is that we can ask for lots of things, but the organization may not be able to give us that 10% raise or that 15% raise and what that other, what their employee then recognized. They, they're still not happy. But they feel like this particular leader felt like, they feel like they've been heard. So it could be, Hey, Joel, I hear you. You want a 20% raise

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

and I'm gonna advocate for you, what if I can't give you what you want?

Teri Schmidt:

Right,

Dr. Joel Perez:

What,

Teri Schmidt:

right.

Dr. Joel Perez:

happens then? Right? And that person then starts thinking, oh, okay. well. Am I not happy enough where I lead the organization? So that's an

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

The, the

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

is you know helping team. So Chi Yoka talks about this

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

The, the questions to ask create a culture of, of curiosity organization,

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

is helping leaders use the phrase, tell me more. Right.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

they hear they're leading, say something that just creates like some dissonance or questions to get in the habit of just say, tell me more. Right?

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

that when leaders start doing that, their, what they report back to me is that their employees feel like, yeah, I need to be like, yeah, I wanna share with you more. I just need the prompt, right? And so, so that's an example, another example. But not a question, but it's a statement. Right? But it leads to some conversation.

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

the, the other one in particular that, that leaders can use when someone is not meeting expectations,

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

right? Or, not following through, to tell them, okay, so. Our agreement or the expectation was that you get this report in on time or that you complete the assignment by the state, didn't happen. Help me understand what the, help me understand what the context of you not being able to meet that expectation or make

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

leads to a conversation, right? As opposed to like, you're not meeting

Teri Schmidt:

Right.

Dr. Joel Perez:

you need to change. You

Teri Schmidt:

Right?

Dr. Joel Perez:

in that person, right. Or why it is that they are not meeting the

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

And it could be they're

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

with the work, or it could be like, I just had a lot of stuff going on and I'm, I'm more, you know, I'm more than my job. I have a family. And,

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

and so then it leads to a conversation,

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

yeah.

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah, and I think that, again, back to the posture, you know, the openness, the. I see you, I want to know you. That comes across, through that curiosity, through that questioning, I could see that applying, you know, back to the, the topic of cultural humility. You know, as we understand the complexity that makes up.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Mm-hmm.

Teri Schmidt:

Each person,

Dr. Joel Perez:

Yes. Mm-hmm.

Teri Schmidt:

I think that that same approach, that same openness and curiosity and willingness to learn can create so much openness in, in a team.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Yes, for sure. I mean, I think that's, that goes back to the, the culture belonging, right? People feel like

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

they are and, and not be afraid to be, or not, not living or showing up at work with the fear that you're gonna come down on them if, if they make a mistake or if they

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

through, that you genuinely care about them as people.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

'cause people are people, right? And we're gonna bring what's happening in our world, into our work space

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

leaders who are rec, who recognize that to then say, okay, how do we, how do we move forward if there's challenges? Or how do we celebrate for who you are that you

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

connected to the organization in that sense of belonging and that psychological safety so that you can thrive. opposed to just, you know, showing up to work because you just need a paycheck and you're not happy. Yeah.

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. You know, one, one thing that I heard almost, not against curiosity, but it's something that I think could dissuade curiosity perhaps. You know, and I'm thinking back to the pandemic, back to, you know, right after George Floyd and. I think I understand what was behind this, but a lot of times when people were asking questions, they were met with the response of, you need to do your own research. I'm not, and I, under, and I, my understanding of that is that because at that time. You know, people in marginalized groups are being put on panels in front of entire, you know, organizations and, and kind of being used as the, the sole source of information. But I just, you know, kind of wanted to hear your perspective on, on that and how you can still be curious but not take advantage of someone or, you know, in, in any other way. Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

that's a great question, Terry. And so the way I would, so if I was working with a white leader who's like, I really want to know more about you, Joel, but, ask you to do something right? Is to one, ask permission, right? And say,

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Joel. There's this event coming up. We're looking for group. Don't need to say yes.

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

But would you be willing to serve on this panel or, Hey Joel, I wanna ask a question about your culture because I'm really curious and it's coming from a place of curiosity and genuineness. Are

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

answering the question? Right?

Teri Schmidt:

Right.

Dr. Joel Perez:

And it gives me permission to say no.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

And if, if I say no, then that person has given me, you know, has given permission to say no, and they're just gonna walk away. They're not gonna keep pressing. Right.

Teri Schmidt:

Right.

Dr. Joel Perez:

an, here's a a, I guess a real life example. I just gave a talk last week

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

and I used an example in the talk that didn't go over very well, right? That I, offended this one person. They provided the feedback via email. And I responded to the email and I said, I am so sorry. I would like to talk to you further about this if you would like, don't feel obligated to respond. I just wanna make myself available to hear

Teri Schmidt:

Mm. Yes.

Dr. Joel Perez:

much for the feedback, Joel.

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

I didn't get defensive'cause it would've been very easy. It was a virtual presentation, it was a virtual keynote

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah. Okay.

Dr. Joel Perez:

issues and it was hard. I couldn't read the audience, but I didn't, I didn't get, I didn't get defensive, right? I'd say,

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

because of this. And so when you are wanting to know more about someone's culture, identity is just ask permission is like,

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

to know more. Are you okay if we like sit. And And then you, Terry, have, you know, the permission to say, yes, I'd love to sit with you and talk, or,

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

tired right now. I am, I am just exhausted.

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

then for me to say, okay, I'm good.

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

And

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Perez:

back unless the other thing you could say is when you're ready, I'm here

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

you ever feel like you can talk about it,

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

but if not, good.

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah. Yeah. Just, just so in that respect, in the asking permission, and I, I think what's so beautiful about the example you shared is that, you know, I, I, I put myself in that place and I could see myself feeling very, like, eager to have a conversation with that person because it meets a need for me. You know, it, it brings me some closure, but the way that you did it was to respect that person and. Offer, offer the opportunity to talk further about it, but if it, it wasn't, you know, a good move for that person, then you were, fine. It's because it's not about you at that point. It's, it's about them.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Yeah. And in the book, I talk about the book, did that just happen?

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

They talk about how to, how to approach when you, the leader commit a microaggression or make a mistake, right? Particularly with

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

a man of color who grew up, you know, below the poverty line. It does a lot of diversity work. I still have bias. It still shows up. I still commit a micro, you know, I still commit microaggressions. It's what do I do and how do I, how do I, well apologize, but then what do I do to learn from that so it

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

happen again? Is really, really important.

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah. Yeah. And that is, that is the, the stance of cultural humility. So I, I think that's great, great way to end and a great example. If people want to learn more about your work, obviously by the book, and, and we'll link that and, and link, you know, share all of your links, but where else would you like them to go?

Dr. Joel Perez:

Yeah, LinkedIn. You could find me on LinkedIn, but if you're interested in, in reading a portion of the book, you can go to dear white leader.com and you can download the first chapter.

Teri Schmidt:

Oh, great.

Dr. Joel Perez:

And at, no, there's no cost to that

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

one. It gives you like, Hey, I'm gonna read through this, and if you like it, then you can, you know, it's available on all the platforms, not just not just print, but it's available on

Teri Schmidt:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joel Perez:

And so, but if you wanna download the first chapter just to say, okay, this resonates with me, I wanna read more.

Teri Schmidt:

Excellent. Excellent. Well, we'll make sure that direct link is included as well. And I just wanna thank you again for your time and, and for the work that you do each day. I think there's so much for us to learn from it and our world would be a much better place if we could all approach it from the posture of cultural humility. So thank you for. Being the voice for that.

Dr. Joel Perez:

Well, it's been my pleasure and I've really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you, Terry.

Teri Schmidt:

If there's one thing to take away from today's conversation, it's this, leadership isn't about having all the answers. It's about staying curious and committed to growth. This week, I invite you to approach one conversation with the posture of cultural humility. Ask yourself, what might I be missing? Thanks again to Dr. Joel for coming on the podcast for this conversation. And be sure to check out his website with the free chapter download and definitely go out and grab his book because especially in these times, a posture of cultural humility can be so powerful. Have a great week and I look forward to being together with you again next week.