Strong Leaders Serve with Teri Schmidt

176. Building Trusting Relationships at Work with Deborah Ancona

• Teri Schmidt

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Do you sometimes struggle to build trusting relationships in your workplace, especially with the distance of remote and hybrid work?  

You're not alone. In this episode, I talked with MIT Professor Deborah Ancona about the essential skills of inquiry, advocacy, and connecting that leaders can use to foster trust inside and outside their organizations. 

Discover the power of balancing these skills in a distributed leadership model, and learn practical steps to cultivate strong external networks. Listen to find out how these strategies can enhance team dynamics and drive exceptional results.

Resources:



Connect on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teri-m-schmidt/

Get 1-on-1 leadership support from Teri here: https://www.strongleadersserve.com/coaching

Set up an intro call with Teri: https://calendly.com/terischmidt/discoverycall

Do you sometimes struggle to build trusting relationships in your workplace, especially with the distance of remote and hybrid work? You're not alone. In this episode, I talked with MIT Professor Debra an Kona about the essential skills of inquiry, advocacy and connecting that leaders can use to foster trust both inside and outside their teams. Debra an Kona is the founder of the MIT Leadership Center. Her work centers on the individual leadership capabilities, team dynamics and organizational structures that enable innovation in an exponentially changing world. Her work also looks at how early family dynamics impact leader's ability to change. Her work has been published in top academic journals and managerial outlets like HBR and SMR. She has consulted to organizations around the world in pharma tech as well as nonprofits. We had a great conversation about building trust and how to more effectively lead. So let's get into it. I am Terry Schmidt, executive and leadership coach at Strong Leaders Serve, where we support leaders in holding the tension of caring about the humans they work with while driving positive business results. And this is The Strong Leaders Serve podcast.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

welcome Deborah to the strong leader serve podcast. I'm looking forward to our conversation today and honored to have you on the show.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

Well, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here and to learn more about what you are interested in and what your followers are interested in.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Wonderful. Well, as I mentioned, I did have a conversation recently with Henrik, your coauthor as well. And, and that was fascinating. And I look forward to digging in specifically to one element of X teams. As I mentioned on the episode with him, I was fascinated by the book and highly recommended to everyone who is interested. And he mentioned also, yeah, of course, of course. And he mentioned also the additional resources that you have available like the simulation and the feedback tool. And so hopefully by this time people have checked that out, but if not, that is a, another reminder to do so, but I'd love to hear your speech. Specific story, you know, what, what was the moment or experience that you would say first inspired you to study how teams operate and succeed?

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

Yeah, it's an interesting question and one that I actually haven't asked myself very much, but if I stop for a moment and think about it, I think the first moment was when I started studying psychology in college and learning about teams and was just stunned At the impact that teams can have on the people that are in those teams silencing themselves, having some people take over some people being scapegoated the idea that we actually shift the way we see things because of being in a group. So there's this conformity push in, in the team. And so I became very interested in, in those dynamics. I'm also very interested in family and families and family systems. And a family is also like a team, so it has its own dynamics. So when I learned that you could actually make a living studying teams and doing research and teaching, I said, oh, wow, this is this is exciting. And interestingly, a lot of the things that I learned early on, And it turns out not to be correct when we study teams in the business context. And so it's been a very fun journey, kind of following the data. So I would say that there's an innate fascination with what is going on in teams.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Right, right. Yeah. And now you've piqued my interest. I'm a, I'm a big data person. So I'd love to hear if there's one that you can share. One thing that you did learn about teams that you then came to learn wasn't. Actually accurate, or maybe not as accurate as you originally thought. Yeah,

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

study that we did looked at all the things that we had learned about what makes teams effective. goals, clear roles, synergy, trust, all of these things. And the first study that we did was of or that I did was of some sales teams in the telecommunications industry. And when we looked, it turned out that teams where people liked each other. Thought that they were doing really, really well. And when they followed all those rules of clear goals and clear roles, et cetera, they thought they were doing really well. They were high performers. But when we looked at actual revenue attainment, Those same dimensions did not hold water. It did not predict revenue. And that, that was a really scary thing for me. That was way back my, my dissertation and not having data that doesn't support your hypothesis is not good, but luckily we got it published because we presented an alternative view, which is. What the X teams ended up being, which is this idea of out before in that it's not just how teams operate internally, but how they reach out across their boundaries that predict performance. Yeah, and

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

that, that is fascinating. And,

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

mentioned,

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

as I mentioned, the leaders I work with, we call them compassionate driven leaders. So those two characteristics, and I could see how if you favor one over the other. So if you favor, you know, Building that strong sense of, I'm not going to say belonging, but of liking each other within the team. And aren't necessarily as focused on the driving, the business results, which might require you to go out before in, or, or does require to go out before. And I could see how you could get caught in that place where your team has excellent engagement, but isn't driving the business results,

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

and we have a lot of data. You're a data fan. That's good. That suggests that teams that are not externally oriented absolutely do not do as well, even though people like each other. If you're not kind of in sync with your environment, then the team can really go down. negative productivity, But the good news is that if you're actively engaged with your external environment, doing what Henrik talked about, ambassadorship, task coordination and sense making, You are more successful. And when you are more successful, then people feel good about the team and about each other and about their performance. And so it's kind of a backwards into. good in the team. So we don't want people to feel

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

right. Yeah,

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

that both, both the external activity and internal sense of satisfaction. Yeah.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

excellent. It's it's not one over the other. You can have both. But like you said, it maybe it is about that order in terms of the going out and being externally focused before coming in. But but both are very important.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

absolutely. And we talk a lot about the external, but you're absolutely right. Keeping that balance is extremely important.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Definitely. Well, I'd love to focus in on the leadership model that you talk a lot about in X teams. You talk about the value of creating a distributed leadership model. And I appreciate I'm curious, particularly in the business environment we're in right now, what makes that so important? Yeah.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

and ambiguous. But the world we're living in today is what we refer to as an exponentially changing world. That is, it is all of those other things, but the new wrinkle as it were, is speed. not just that we're going fast, but we're accelerating. It's going faster and faster and faster and faster. And you just have to look in the world. AI is going in one direction. All of a sudden there's some disruption and we're going in another direction so that speed. Is a critical part of our external environment. So in that kind of environment, what you don't want to do is have just leadership at the top eight. It takes too long for leaders for it to go up and come down and Because of the complexity and the need to move so quickly, the person at the top doesn't necessarily have all the information and expertise that's needed. So you need what we refer to as distributed leadership, by which we simply mean leadership at every level at the top and at the bottom. And so In that case, you want people at all levels to make decisions. You want the people who have access to the customers, to the technology, to the marketplace. Those are the people who you want in a decision making, making mode. That said, it's not that we're getting rid of senior leadership. Senior leadership has a pivotal role to play. And one of the articles that. I wrote with colleagues on nimble leadership. The senior level is what we call the architects. They have to architect the culture and the structure and the processes that get all of those other leaders aligned. In the same direction. they're all following the same strategy. They're all moving in in joint step with one another. And so the idea is to have leaders in sync and having the people who have the information and the expertise and the timing right to be the ones making decisions.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Yeah. You know, I love that. And it, it brings up you know, some, challenges that I've heard from executives. That I work with, and you know, they particularly new executives who are very concerned about not having direct access to, for example, the frontline workers anymore and not having having that data and feeling that that is a lack. And I just. I think it's reassuring to hear you talk about nimble leadership. And it's not that they don't need that data. They don't need that direct access, but it sounds like their role is shifted to the point that if you have this distributed leadership model they can operate in a way that that isn't as much of a lack because they have leaders at the other levels that do have access to that information. Did I understand that correctly? Mm hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

so it means that senior leaders are not the sole decision makers, and that can also feel uncomfortable. Well, wait a second. I'm seeding power at some level, but they are creating what we call the game board of leadership. On which X teams and individual leaders are are working So a very pivotal role, but you also doesn't mean that they have to be out of. The information there still could be communication that links up to the top or moments check ins. Okay, what are you working on? What's going on? So that they do have a sense of what's going on. They don't have to put a barrier between what they're doing and lower level leaders.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Right, right. But it's not necessarily all on them.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

It's not on them and it's not daily keeping your fingers on the on the pulse of what's going on. It may be just periodic check ins.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Right, right. Exactly. Well, you know, getting into the continuing on that with the distributed leadership model. I know there are four skills that you focus in on, but the one that I really wanted to hone in on today, because I think it's critical for the leaders that listen is that leadership skill of relating. So I wonder if you would define relating for me and talk about what makes it so important, particularly in a organization where they are using the distributed leadership model that is full of X teams.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

Sure. Well, so very simple definition. We could get into a lot of complexity. But us, very simply, it's creating trusting relationships with others, not just in your team, but also in your organization and in the external ecosystem. So it's that X team philosophy of relating inside and it's important because first of all, in this new world where we're having to interact with a lot of different kinds of people different on many, many dimensions. And so being able to Act in that kind of environment requires some relating skills. And it's also important because we have to, as I said, move quickly. So that means you need to quickly be able to understand and empathize, have that inquiry work, understand the other people, but also advocate and negotiate. For yourself as well as coaching people. So if you have much more distributed innovation and distributed leadership, then people are sometimes doing work that that Isn't necessarily comfortable for them, or it might be new for them. And so this coaching capacity. So rather than doing, you're helping a lot of other people do the work. And that's a form of relating as is again, creating these external networks so that you can partner so that you can learn so that you can coordinate In a nimble way, you have to be able to move quickly and that means being able to up the phone or send the email or whatever way we're currently communicating and say, Hey, I have an idea. Do you want to do this? How can we do this? And, and moving very quickly. I often, show a video of Jennifer Hyman, who's the founder of Rent the Runway, and she tells this great story of they're thinking about this new organizational form, this new business model, and her roommate co founder says, Well, who should we speak to about this? And said, Well, Diane von Furstenberg. And the roommate says, What do you know her? And so she says, No, not at all. But they They

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

von Furstenberg in order and they get her and they're invited to a meeting and she goes to the meeting three days after she has this idea is this quick go picture idea to create a relationship so that you can understand what's the customer's perspective? What do I need to do to change? And that rests on a fundamental boundary or fundamental base of relating.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

I love that story. And in your mention of, you know, both inquiry and advocacy, I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. And I, as I understand it, I often see leaders who have a preference for one over the other. So I'd, I'd love to hear. First, kind of a little bit more about your definition of what inquiry looks like and what advocacy looks like, but then second, why is it important to have the balance between those two as you are building relationships and building effective teams? Mm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

inquiry refers to an ability really to do what psychologists called perspective taking to put yourself in someone else's shoes. Can I understand the world from your shoes? if we're in negotiation, then I need to say, well, why do you want what you want so that you can get deeper down into understanding the motives and what's driving the other person? That's really, really important. But leaders can't just inquire, they also have their own agendas and they need to be able to and negotiate for those agendas, advocate for what they think is important. So just as, I might reach out to you and say, why are you working so hard to get X done? also need to say, and this is why I think why is so important. This is, this is my understanding. These are my data. This is my rationale. This is my experience. This is why I am. And that affords just a place of, of dialogue. It's

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

I don't like what you say and you don't like what I say. So we're done. And we're just in conflict. You need to be able to create some space for dialogue. And that's why you need both of those things. Okay.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Yeah. For those leaders that, you know, maybe have a preference for inquiry and are very curious. We've, we've done, you know, several episodes about curiosity and about perspective taking. So for those leaders who are really comfortable. In that, but maybe not as comfortable with the advocacy piece or maybe a little bit quieter about it. Have you seen you know, best practices or anything that can help leaders get more in a balanced place?

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

well, it's a great question, and I actually work with a lot of executives and a lot of female executives. I know you have a

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

the room, and I think there are several ways that I would look at that. The first is sometimes the people who are into inquiry actually have this idea that advocacy is bad. Mm hmm.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

it's

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

hmm. Mm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

selfish. It's taking up too much room. It's pushy. It's political. And that's bad. And

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

hmm. Mm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

that is an issue, the first thing I suggest, I'm a huge, huge fan of reframe. How can

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

selfish. I'm, I'm pushy. I'm political to I'm representing my team and the needs of my team. That's what I'm doing, particularly for women. It's not just about me. It's also about, it's from me to other.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

And in order to do that, I need to get my point of view across because that's doing my job. It's not being political. It's actually doing my job. Or need to clarify our priorities and interest because otherwise someone else is going to get the power and we're going to lose out. So not doing this is net net loss. So thinking about different ways to To reframe what advocacy is and maybe even get rid of the word. Get rid of the word. If, if, if, if advocacy or politicizing, whatever, it's. Triggers you in some way that gets you in a negative path. Then just think about it differently. I'm representing my team and all the work that we've done in order to improve the outcome. That's what this is about. Very different.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm hmm. Mm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

doesn't really work in the spirit of distributed leadership. someone else to do your, your advocacy or your negotiating. You might come bring two of you. One does the inquiry and the other does the advocacy for it. Cause there's some people it's easy for some people.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

a problem. So create some partnership or synergy with someone who. Has a good time doing it.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Yeah. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

is around this idea of vicarious learning, which actually Henrik writes about quite a bit. And that is an idea of learn from others, watch other people. So find someone that you like and respect, not someone you think, Ooh, that person takes advantage of other people or is a jerk, someone that you actually like and respect, and maybe not just one person, but several and watch them. What do they do? How do they speak? How do they bring their requests up? How do they not be pushy but still get their point across? You have to be a little detective to see. Okay, what are they doing? And then ask the question. What of those things might I bring into my leadership? What we call

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Yeah. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

experiment a little. If you don't change, then nothing else is going to change. So it, it doesn't have to be you come in the next day and you're a ferocious negotiator. It's little steps that you can take to say, oh, well, this person just calmly presented the data as a different point of view. Didn't get riled, didn't, you know, very calm. Okay, why don't I try that the next time I'm in a conversation. So little mini steps that can perhaps bring you into a better a better stance on on advocacy.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Yeah. Such, such excellent and easy to implement ideas. I, I know you know, just going back to what you were saying at the beginning about how can you reframe this as seeing you. Advocating for your team or doing it for other people. I know a lot of the research, particularly around female leaders, says that, you know, if we can frame it from the perspective of how we are supporting others, that, that tends to be a little bit more motivating or easy, easier to implement. And then the piece about finding someone that you like and observing what they are doing that That's just excellent in terms of having that example and also, you know, getting to your leadership signature, which I love that concept. I saw you just did a series on LinkedIn about that as well.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

That.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

And I, you know,

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

our advocacy,

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

if we can find a way to ground it in our values and know the why. For our advocacy, whether that is to support our team or whether that is to act in line with our values, that can really make it a lot easier, get forward and do that advocacy that's necessary to be the leader that you need to be, be the leader that you were chosen to be by your organization.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

Absolutely. And just a shorthand on that. The way that we think about it is if you're having problems, there's kind of three not only what I just talked about, but sort of three ways to think about it. One is from either or to both., If you think I'm either good at inquiry or advocacy, you're going to pick inquiry if that's what you like. But we live in a world of both and, you can still be the nice leader who listens and empathizes and participate. And You can add advocacy to something that you do. So it's both

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

either or. It's from hot to medium. Again, if advocacy or negotiating triggers you in some way, present it or think about it in a different way that doesn't feel as negative. And then

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

what you were just talking about, which is from self to other. Make it not just about you, but about how you help your team. It's great that

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Oh, those are great. It's great that you shortened that into three, three tips that are easy to remember. Thank you for that. So one of the themes that we're really focused on this year and strong on strong leader serve is the theme of overwhelmed due to being overloaded with work. And a lot of our leaders face that. And as I mentioned, you know, they're compassionate and driven, so they're not only concerned about getting the business results with all this work that's being piled on them, particularly. For our middle manager listeners but they're also concerned about taking care of their people. So I'm, I'm curious, getting back to the skill of relating how do you think the leaders can use that skill of relating to create a culture that reduces burnout both for themselves and for their team?

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

Yeah. So I mean, this is a hard one and so a few things but, as I mentioned before, we're looking at this idea of, of family ghosts, or I'm looking at this idea of family ghosts. So these attitudes and behaviors from childhood that bring us into that we bring into our executive role. And for those who are all about inquiry, it's often about being. the care bear or pleasing others, or that's kind of what they carry with them. terms of workload, sometimes it's the perfectionism that really gets in the way of having a burnout. And so

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm-hmm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

things to think about is what is good enough? We don't want to push people to be perfect at everything. It's just

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm-hmm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

too much for us. It's too much for our team. So what is it that is okay. We have to Excel on this and that's a prioritization. Can you prioritize this? We really have to get perfect. But all these other things, what is good enough?

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm-hmm Mm-hmm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

between good enough and perfect can sometimes be what pushes us over the edge.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm-hmm Mm-hmm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

thing is modeling good behavior. I was teaching a group yesterday and one of the guys said, well, I don't answer any emails after eight o'clock and I don't answer any emails over the weekend because I want my people to know that not what we're going to do. And if I just talk about no burnout and dah, dah, dah, but. I'm on all weekend and all night, then that sends a very different message than the one I'm trying to communicate. So you

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm-hmm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

in terms of relating, you are the role model that

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm-hmm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

toward to say, how do we function here? And so you have to make sure your behavior is, is in line with that. Also goal setting. Don't set goals for your people that are impossible to get because there again, Oh yeah, I want work life balance and so on and so forth. But if you don't get this, this, this and this done, you're Then it's you're not a good employee. Well, you're setting up the circumstances that require work. That is, is

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm-hmm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

a high

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm-hmm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

And some of it as I said, is prioritizing, figuring out and asking people, what is it that we don't have to do?

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm-hmm Mm-hmm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

What is it that we can take off our plates?

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Right?

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

get someone else to do or work around or get AI to do. I mean, AI

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm-hmm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

a

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm-hmm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

these days. I use it all the time now. Oh, summarize this, or I just wrote this, fix it up a little bit. Or it's such

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm-hmm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

saver of time that figure out what you don't have to do or what. What you can get help with and then finally, I think the thing is to negotiate up, right? You don't have to take everything that your boss says you have to do Say, you know what? We're already doing this this and this so I know you want us to do this, but where do you see us dropping something?

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Right. Right. And your prioritization, you know, where, what can come off so that if this needs to be prioritized.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

Exactly.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Yeah. Mm-hmm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

push on back up rather than just accepting. And again, people pleasers or perfectionists are going to want to please the senior leader, but then you're stuck having all that extra work to do. So how do you set boundaries? Absolutely.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

right. Which again, gets back to your values, gets back to organizational values as, as well to help set those priorities. So, yeah, thank you for that. Well, I, I know there's one more skill in the skill of relating and, and that is Connecting in addition to inquiry and advocacy. So it's not just about those internal team dynamics that we were talking about, but also about those external networks of support that we, we started our conversation on. How can leaders intentionally cultivate a network of confidence to help them address challenges like disconnection and burnout? And why is this so essential?

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

Yeah, so I, I'd say that the external connections are not just about having someone to discuss with. I

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

I, I think you want to, in your mind, think about what do you need an external network for?

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

about all right, I want someone at my fingertips I need career advice. I have technology questions, so now Jenny, I can't possibly keep up with everything. The guy who taught an AI course. He's I like him and I'm whatever he needs. I'm happy to give him because I want him there when I have a question or a query or

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

He actually is a great. connector to a whole community that I don't know.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

who is gonna answer your technology questions? Who are potential partners for you in the work that you're you're doing? Who do you need as a key advisor strategy or other things that that you might need? What customers? Do you stay in touch with so that you can keep your fingers on the pulse of changing customer demand? So think

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Yeah. Mm hmm. Mm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

and what are the needs that you have and then figure out how to create that network. Satya Nadella is my go to role model on this. He, every day, every day, he has two meetings. With this is a man who has a lot to do. So just, if we

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

okay, we don't have any time for this. Two meetings a day with other CEOs to

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Ah,

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

what are you working on? What are you thinking with? Who are you working with? What are the issues you see coming forward? Because when you have that external connectivity, it's easier. for you to then invent new ways of working, for you to envision where, what is the future and where are we going? If you

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

right.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

from scratch without that external input, you're behind. And so

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

than thinking about it as, oh my goodness, this is sapping all my time, I don't have time for this, reframe, this is

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

for me to do my work and make the work easier.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. This is an accelerant, almost, in your work.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

absolutely.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

world? Stepping out and asking people and talking to people is, is one important way to do this. And it's not just for you, it's for your team. fact, think about much more relating and sensemaking and connectivity you have, if your whole team is going out. And not just you. And so you have to be focused on it. You have to not just go, Oh, everybody should. Okay. This week, everybody go and interview a customer about what they like and don't like about this new product. Okay. Everybody go out, back. So you've done your sensing. Now your sense making. What did we learn? How does that impact our projects? How does that impact the work we're going to be doing going forward? Okay, now we have to present that to senior leaders so that they give us buy in. So, okay, let's get together, get a presentation and go out and give it to several senior leaders so that they're aware of what we're doing. And therefore we get more buy in, we get more resources, we get more of other things. So I think that This external communication is just pivotal

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

with all the other leadership capabilities that you're asked to, to have.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, like, you talked about You know, the connection, the relating is, is beneficial, not only from all the data that you're taking in and how it can accelerate your business, but also beneficial for us as people to, to connect to other humans. And

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

And to learn. I mean, the, the, the essence of, of leading these days is learning because we were living in this fast changing world. Everything's changing. We need to learn. And so sending people out to kind of put their fingers on the pulse of all kinds of different trends. Okay, we want to use a I, but how What does that even mean? So if we want to use it for a particular product, maybe we go out and say, okay, who's using it in this way so that we can learn from them? And then we come in, okay, what did everybody learn and how do we harness that learning our own work? So it's connected to what we're going to do, what we have to learn and making new things happen.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Yeah, that, that's a key point too. And, you know, I'm a big proponent of being intentional in all that we do. And, and what you just said about, you know, it, it being focused on. You know, we are all going to go talk to a customer this week and, and bring it back and talk about what we learned and how it integrates, and then maybe next week it's something else, but having that intention behind what you're doing as opposed to, yes, you may just get benefit by talking to people regardless and, and kind of rolling the dice and you might glean some information that ends up being helpful, but can be so much. More helpful when you do have that intention behind it and it can really accelerate your team and your business

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

Well,

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

that way. Mm. Mm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

have data on that, too that just because the team increases its communication outside, that does not lead to better performance. It is. Specific kinds of communications again to learn about partnering, about how they do something else that relates to what you're trying to do, that's what makes the difference. So you're absolutely right to focus in on that intentionality.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's great. And it brought another question to mind. It just the since you have, you know, written books, I'm, I'm guessing people may take this concept and, and maybe, you know, Apply it in a way that doesn't lead to results. Like you were just talking about, you know, just taking one piece of it and and increasing communication, but not being intentional about it. Are there is there maybe 1 or 2 particular. Maybe missteps that you've seen being made with the concept, either in X teams or in other writings that you would advise people against.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

Yeah, I do think that you've kind of hit on it. Just because we're saying X teams, which means X stands for externally active

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

before in. I think random externalization just talking to people is is not very helpful. I also think the timing of it right. So if You have, you have to define what's our priority right now. So everybody's going to go talk to a customer. Everybody's going to go talk to a competitor or whatever it is. It's focused. it's timely. Okay, we're gonna take the next week to do this, and then we're gonna switch gears and harvest what we learned. It's not

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm hmm. Mm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

all over the place all of the time because that gets chaotic. And you're

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

hmm. Mm hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

that harvesting. And so the harvesting is so important. I've seen so many teams. Oh, we're doing this, this, this, and this, and then we, we just, it, it evaporates because there is not that coming together. And the team still exists. The team still has to process things, and you have to build the team, and so it's not just out, it's out and in, and learn and process.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Excellent. Excellent point. Yeah, that, that second step of the harvesting. I can see that being critically important. Well, As I mentioned a few times, you know, I work primarily with compassionate driven leaders, and I'd love to hear if you had one piece of advice to offer them what would it be?

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

So I think it would be that, If you're compassionate and then you care about others, that's really great, but you have to remember that the others includes you. think that would be my advice, that sometimes the compassion bleeds over into excess work, excess pleasing, excess inquiry, and you have to remember that if you're burnt out, you're not a good leader. If you're not doing that advocacy or having someone else, again, if you can't have someone else do it, you're losing. And in game theory, if you're the cooperative and you're against a competitive person, then you lose. Right? So just keep the compassion. Oh, my goodness. We are so in need. What we want, don't want is more toxic leaders who don't care about

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

do and being mean to people. Compassion is great. But if compassion is going to be linked to results, then one has to be careful to just give up everything before you, you got it. So you know, you're important. Give yourself time off when you need it. Give yourself rest to think about what's next on the agenda. Give yourself some lessons in advocacy so that it's this again, both and not either or.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Wonderful. Excellent reminder. Thank you for that. And if people would like to learn more about you and your research and your work, where is the best place for them to go

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

I'm actually gonna, this brought on a question. So before I get to that,

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

work?

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

actually pivot and ask you the question.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

course. Yeah,

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

I'm saying resonate with what you've heard? Does there seem to be this kind of imbalance of other over self?

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

there, there does. And, you know, we I've talked frequently about strong leaders serve, they don't rescue. And so you know, when I first had. The podcast strong leader serve and have the business strong leaders serve. And then I started hearing kind of rumblings that we don't want leaders to serve because that leads to burnout. So I really had to do some investigation. What does serve mean to me? And it is and it's very aligned with how I define leadership and that is courageously using your talents to make a way for others to courageously use theirs. And so that's what I mean about serve. It's, it's. It's not about jumping in any time they're having a problem, but instead finding what capacity within them enables them to solve that problem and what Scaffolding they need to be able to be able to solve that problem for themselves. So it can take a little bit more time up front, but it creates a culture where they aren't necessarily code, you know, it's not a codependent culture on you where you're getting burned out. So yeah, I would, I would definitely say that it resonates.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

Okay, great. Well, I love that. I love that perspective. I think that's a really important perspective. So I'm glad that you're You're

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Well,

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

that in there. That's great. Anyway, to learn more, I guess. LinkedIn would be one place. I post quite a bit. Pretty frequently, as you say, where I'm posting right now on leadership

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Mm

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

Another is I'm sure Henrik mentioned it at X lead dot co, which is where we have a series of leadership development tools and products as well as access to some of the articles and books and blogs and so on that

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

hmm. Mm hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

out on a regular basis. Think the other thing is, at just go to M. I. T. Sloan, which is where I

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Hmm.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

and you can look me up. And again, there access to a number of articles and podcasts and other things.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

Well, excellent. Well, I'll make sure that all gets linked in the show notes, of course, so that people can find that

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

Thank you.

teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133450:

But I, I know you're very busy and I do really appreciate your time for this conversation. I know that it will be a benefit to many leaders who are listening. So thank you very much.

deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_143450:

Well, thank you very much.

Well, I hope you enjoyed that episode. Thank you again to Debra for coming on, spending time with us and sharing her wisdom and experiences about leading with inquiry and advocacy. We talked about a lot, and I hope you're able to take at least one item from our conversation and think about how you can put it into action today. For me, it's going to be thinking about how I can reframe, how I view advocacy and the power that that can have in my leadership and life. Have a wonderful week. I look forward to being back together with you next week.