Strong Leaders Serve with Teri Schmidt

161. Navigating the Empathy Dilemma with Maria Ross

August 21, 2024 • Teri Schmidt

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Do you sometimes feel like the empathy at work pendulum has swung too far in one direction? 

Like people are starting to take advantage of caring leaders?

Today's guest, Maria Ross, addresses that feeling head on in her upcoming book, The Empathy Dilemma: How Successful Leaders Balance Performance, People, and Personal Boundaries. 

In our conversation, she'll unpack the five foundational pillars of empathetic leadership that she identified through extensive research and interviews. We'll discuss how empathy goes beyond being nice—how it's a powerful tool that can enhance performance, boost innovation, and improve overall employee engagement and customer experiences.

Maria will share insights on how empathy, when misused, can become weaponized in the workplace, and how leaders can establish clear communication and professional boundaries to address such challenges.

This is an episode packed with wisdom, practical advice, and as always, actionable insights to help you serve and lead effectively.

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Connect on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teri-m-schmidt/

Get 1-on-1 leadership support from Teri here: https://www.strongertoserve.com/coaching

Set up an intro call with Teri: https://calendly.com/terischmidt/discoverycall

Do sometimes feel like the empathy at work pendulum has swung too far in one direction. Like people are starting to take advantage of caring leaders. You're not alone. It's a concern I've heard from several leaders. Today's guest Maria Ross addresses that feeling head on and her soon to be released book the empathy, dilemma, how successful leaders, balanced performance people and personal boundaries. Maria is a speaker facilitator, author strategists and empathy advocate. Who believes cashflow creativity. And compassion are not mutually exclusive. She spent decades helping forward-thinking leaders, teams, and brands connect and engage through empathy to accelerate growth. Maria's previous book, the empathy edge sparked a movement and she now hosts the top rated empathy edge podcast. Speaking with leaders, change-makers authors and activists on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Maria delivers powerful talks and leadership training workshops for companies. And I'm thrilled to bring you my conversation with her today. So let's get into it. I'm Terry Schmidt, your host and executive leadership coach who loves partnering with caring leaders and teams to accelerate their impact. And this. Is the strong leader served podcast. Well, hi, Maria. Welcome to the strong leader, sir, podcast.

Maria Ross:

Thanks for having me, Terry.

Teri Schmidt:

I'm really looking forward to our conversation. We had such a great conversation. I think it was about a year ago now that I was on your Empathy Edge podcast. and. I am all about empathy in the workplace and really excited for the new book that you have coming out.

Maria Ross:

Thanks. Yeah. I love talking to you about how to create stronger teams.

And empathy is a big part of that. Hopefully our audience already knows you, but if they don't, I would love for you to just tell us a little bit about yourself, about your story and about how you got so focused on empathy in the workplace.

Maria Ross:

Yeah, sure. So I am what I like to call an empathy advocate. I am a speaker, a leadership trainer, a, um, an author, a podcaster, and my, My coming book is The Empathy Dilemma, How Successful Leaders Balance Performance, People, and Personal Boundaries. It's a follow on to my last book, which was called The Empathy Edge, um, Harnessing the Value of Compassion as an Engine for Success. And I actually got into this work through marketing and branding, quite honestly. Um, I started my own brand consultancy after a very successful, um, corporate marketing career. And in 2008 I started Red Slice and I was working and I still continue to work with forward thinking companies about how to connect and engage with the people who matter, usually from a brand perspective, customers and prospects. And the theme of empathy came up a lot in terms of helping them really understand who their customers were and not just from a demographic perspective, but from a psychographic. So who are they? What are their goals? What are their values? What are their fears? What keeps them up at night? Who What sort of a day in the life so that we can understand how our products and our services fit into their needs. And this way we're not just marketing to everybody, but we're marketing to the right people who actually need what we've got. Um, and that, that superpower of empathy is very much underappreciated in marketing, but that was when I wrote the first book and that was really about. You know, looking at it from the perspective of leaders, teams and brands, because you can't look at brand without looking at culture. There are two sides of the same coin. And if, if you do, you run the risk of putting a brand veneer on your company. So it's really got to start from the inside out, which I know you are very passionate about. So did a lot of research and subsequently did years of interviews on my podcast with leaders. In leadership development, leadership training, leadership optimization, and in culture. And so that's why I ended up writing the second book that's now coming out soon. Because this one's really about leaders who get it and they understand the ROI because the first empathy book was about establishing the business But they struggle because it's hard. Right. And so this next books talks about why it's hard. Um, Because everyone thinks it's a good idea if you talk to them. But why is it actually hard to implement and why is it really hard for people to balance empathy with getting things done and holding people accountable and protecting their own mental health? And so I, across all my research and interviews, discovered five common threads that really effective and empathetic leaders have the A really strong foundation in and this way leaders can read this book and say, where do I need to shore up my foundational pillars? Because maybe that's the missing piece or the weak piece for me. That's causing me all these problems with trying to be an empathetic leader at work.

Teri Schmidt:

Right. And I love that you dig into those five specific pillars, because I think sometimes people think. Oh, I just need to be more empathetic. I just need to be nicer. Right. And we both know that's not what empathy at work really means. But maybe just before we get into those five pillars. And some of the challenges that you address in your excellent book, I'd like to take a step back because you also start off your book with what empathy at work is. And what it is not. So, I wonder if maybe you could just walk us through that and you mentioned the business case for empathy. I know that was kind of more your first book, but, basically I'd love to hear from you. What is empathy? What is it not? And why should leaders care?

Maria Ross:

yeah, so what it is is, uh, there are a lot of different definitions, but I created a, a working definition that works for people at work. I know that's a lot of works, but empathy is really the ability to see. Understand and where appropriate feel another person's perspective and further use that information to act with compassion. So I like to talk to leaders who might be like, Oh, it's squishy and it's Oh, it's me crying on the floor with my employees at work, right? Think of it as information gathering. To make you more effective and to make your team more effective. So when you can see something from another person's perspective, when you can try to understand and get curious and listen, you get information that can help you move forward effectively with that person. So it's about understanding someone's context. It's not always about crying on the floor. You may end up crying, who knows, but you know, that's not what it's primarily about. And so when we look at it from the perspective of information gathering, it. It feels a little bit more accessible, especially in the workplace. And what it's not is you alluded to this earlier. It's not just about being nice. We can't just hire a bunch of nice people and expect an empathetic culture. Nice is a different thing. Empathy is about being able to see someone's point of view. Without defensiveness or fear, I should add. Um, it's also not about caving into unreasonable demands because that's submission and acquiescence. That's not empathy. That's people pleasing, right? And it also is not agreeing with someone. So you and I can have an empathetic conversation about a debate or about a difference in budget strategy or a difference in what we think the right strategic course is to take. And we can try to see each other's perspectives. But I don't have to agree with you. I can, I can look at what you're saying. I could add to it. We could come up with some combined method. We could come up with some third way. Um, but it's only in the being able to understand where each person is coming from and why they feel the way they feel or why they think the way they think that we can come to constructive, creative, innovative solutions and being able to be in that empathetic environment. You talked about the ROI. There's so much data and so much research that shows that empathetic leaders, um, and cultures boost performance, boost innovation, boost engagement, boost, you know, from a customer standpoint, they create better customer experiences. Um, they decrease, you know, And if you think about it, you know, this is so much of your work, it's about creating that safe space so people are not cognitively paralyzed, worried about the wrong things. You want them focused on the work at hand. You want them focused on creative solutions. And we know from science that when we're under stress or we're in fear, or we're, you know, worried about getting fired, or we're worried about, you know, getting fired for submitting an idea, our cognitive abilities are impaired. So literally you are reducing the effectiveness of your employees ability to innovate for the company when you don't employ the right people. Empathy as part of the culture. Um, and so that's really the ROI for people and why leaders should care because it actually does impact the bottom line.

Teri Schmidt:

It does matter so much. And I'd love to dig into that. But before we do just that last piece. you were talking about, we did a whole nother episode with, Tom Garrity. And he was talking about the impact on cognitive load when you don't have psychological safety on your team. And it was an interesting perspective that I hadn't considered before. And I love hearing you bring it up as well. And you, then, you know, the other thing that you said at the beginning about it's information gathering, that brings up something I've been talking a little bit about lately. And that is a read a research article where the title referenced perspective mistaking. So I know, an element of empathy, cognitive empathy. Focuses on perspective taking, but this article talked about. how sometimes. Even though we're trying to take the perspective of someone else. We're actually perspective mistaking. if you're not doing that information gathering. And you're just assuming that, you know, what the other person is thinking. That's a step. It's better than not thinking about it all, but they're thinking about. But it's still dangerous and it isn't. as valuable as doing that information gathering.

Maria Ross:

Yeah. I love that you said that because that's the danger of going with purely cognitive empathy because there's cognitive empathy and there's emotional empathy. Cognitive empathy is me imagining what things might be like for you or how I might react in the situation. But in that scenario, it's a start, like you said, it's better than nothing, but it also centers me in the narrative and how I might react in that scenario is not how you might react in that scenario. So if we take it to the workplace, right, I might be motivated by a huge bonus to work, you know, 80 hours on a special project. If I assume everybody is motivated by just money, I'm going to have a problem. But if I can be empathetic and go, okay, well, you know, Maria is motivated by money, but Terry's motivated by flexibility with her time. So the reward for Terry for doing that extra project might need to be something else. And that's how we get the best work out of our people. We don't try to apply that cookie cutter perspective, but. But I've gone away from using the phrase, walk in someone else's shoes and instead gone to see things from their perspective because I can get on the same side of the table and see what you try to see what you see. But again. It's not you seeing it, it's me seeing it. I'm going to interpret it differently. I'm going to react differently. Um, and so it's really about understanding what the other person's experience is. And you can't get there unless, like you said, you ask questions and you get curious and try not to make assumptions.

Teri Schmidt:

Definitely. And that last point you brought to mind, In your book. I know you had a quote that empathy is about connection, not conversion. I love that, especially, you know, when we talk about, the culture that we're in now, with, people being afraid to disagree and, you know, just being so divisive. I'd love to hear a little bit more from you about. that quote. And empathy being about connection and not conversion.

Maria Ross:

Yeah, I think it kind of goes back to the myth that empathy means I agree with you. And so we can, I love finding these parallels with my work and parenting just, I guess, cause I'm in it and I have a 10 year old, but you know, I can, I can teach my child or I can look at something my child does and not agree with it. Right. Please don't ride on the dog. Like that's not a good thing. But I can try to find empathy of. You know, I don't, I don't have to condone that behavior. And I can speak out. You know, I could say that is not a good behavior to engage in, but I understand you're, you're bored or you want to wrestle with the dog or you want to do something active with the dog. How about you go for a walk with the dog? How about you go toss the ball in the backyard? So if I understand what, what the person is trying to get to, I can maybe redirect them away from the behavior or. The, the thinking or, you know, why, you know, you don't like this strategy because of this, I disagree with you. I see a different path to get to our goals. And so I think when we focus on empathy, we can focus on making the connection of, I don't agree with you, but I understand why you think the way you do. And so let's find a solution that helps us move forward together. And that's what I mean by the connection versus the conversion. We don't have to walk away agreeing with each other. We just have to walk away with a productive solution.

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah. Another recent guest talked about. respectfully disagreeing.

Maria Ross:

Yeah. And even in some cases, you know, when, when people, when leaders have to make tough business decisions, the goal is not to get 100 percent of agreement. There's no such decision that pleases everybody. But if you have a philosophy of being transparent and being clear, you know, some of the pillars in the new book, if you can present the case of this is why I've made the decision. I've factored in everyone's points of view, but here's why we did this. And here's why we accepted this. And we didn't accept that. Now you can get everybody to do what I call in the book and what other people have shared with me is disagree, but commit. So we're not all going to be happy, a hundred percent happy with this decision, especially if you have a large team, right? It's impossible, but if they can understand at least that the decision was made fairly and transparently, and at least their perspective was considered, they can be more. Uh, willing to disagree but commit, but you also as a leader have to be clear about, we're going to make sure we disagree and commit and we're not going to have this conversation again. Right. We're going to move forward.

Teri Schmidt:

Right. You. You know, there's so much in your book that we could dig into. And I'm on board with so much of it and loved reading it and would highly recommend all listeners go out and get it. But something in particular struck me, because I have heard this from several leaders that I've been talking to recently. And that is around the weaponization of empathy. And particularly after the pandemic, how, in some cases, you could say that empathy is being weaponized. So, I wonder if we could use that frame. I'd love to hear, hear from you. First, of course. What do you mean by the weaponization of empathy and some of the stories that you've heard from leaders, but maybe we could use that to go through your five pillars and talk about how each of those pillars might help when you are in a situation. You're a leader. And maybe you think that someone is weaponizing empathy.

Maria Ross:

Yeah. So weaponized empathy is, and I'm going to put some caveats on this too, because let me take a step back. We've come a long way with being able to discuss. Personal issues in the workplace and really understand that people are not Machines. They're not robots. Whatever happens to them outside of the office door comes with them inside the office door or the metaphorical office door. Right. And so we're getting a lot better about understanding that, that what's happening in someone's family life, what's happening to them personally, or with their own mental health, what's happening to them because of what they're seeing in society and culture, maybe as a group or as an underrepresented group, for example, that's actually impacting their ability to come to work and. Invent. Collaborate, perform, deliver like it. There's no way it can't. Right. So it's good that we're able to discuss these things. And we now people have the language to talk to. Their bosses to talk to their colleagues. We, you know, we hear more talk of mental health in the workplace. We see more benefits being offered around mental health. We see more accommodations and more flexibility, um, for people and their situations, different paid time off policies, etcetera. Those are all great things and should continue that flexibility that. That caring, that acting with compassion and understanding. But what has happened is what I call weaponizing empathy is that some people, and I, I like to be very clear that these are outliers, will take those words and that language and use it against bosses who are trying to be empathetic as a way to shut them down. Meaning you have asked me to work late, even though we're in a crisis or it's just, you know, two or three nights of working late,

Teri Schmidt:

Mm hmm.

Maria Ross:

crosses my boundary. And I think I'm going to need to take some mental health days to process that request. It's that kind of language and that kind of talk when it's turned against, um, an organization or a leader who's not asking something completely unreasonable, but Is now scared to make those asks of their employees. They're scared. that the work's not going to get done. They're scared. The employee is going to leave. They're scared. The employee is going to quiet quit. They're scared. The employee is going to report them to HR, right? So what happens is that leader Neglects their own mental health to try to deal with the situation and try to shield the rest of their team from the damage that that can cause if someone's not pulling their weight and that's where I'm seeing burnout, that's where I'm seeing. You know, I I'm working 90 hours a week because, you know, Jimmy on my team said he needed three mental health days because I asked him to work late, right? So that's not good for anyone. And so really with the five pillars and also understanding what empathy is and isn't, because I think that helps a lot too, is it helps you shore up that foundation so you can better Deal with that kind of an attack if it happens to you, right? And you can, you can know that you've been, you know, the pillars are around self awareness, self care, clarity, decisiveness, and joy. You can stand strong. You know, am I aware of my own blind spots and my, my strengths? I am. So I know that I am actually being completely fair to this person. They're the ones that might be a little unreasonable. Now, am I taking care of myself as my well full, right? If I'm hungry, tired, stressed, I am a raw nerve and I'm not going to deal with any sort of perceived attack in an effective, constructive way. Am I being clear? You know, what, have I been clear with my team about not only their, their. Job responsibilities on the job posting, but about our culture, you know, we are going to make sure you have really great work life and integration, but sometimes you will be called on to work late. Sometimes you will be asked to do something outside of the scope of your work. Are you going to sign on for that? Because if you're not, I totally respect that. But we need people that are going to be willing to sign on for that. And if that's not where you are, then that's a different conversation. Now we have to have a conversation about if this is the right role or company for you and not in a, not in a, um, threatening way, but in a, like maybe your, uh, maybe your values and your life circumstances have changed and you can no longer honor that obligation of what I've established as the culture. And that's about clarity. You know, we, we can't hold people to an expectation we've never set. So, um, and then decisiveness. Have I been clear? Have I been consistent? Have I made the tough calls? Have I addressed a performance review before it festered and turned into someone weaponizing empathy? And then finally, has there been joy in our workplace? And not like constant laughter, but is there, is there a form of, I was just discussing this with someone yesterday. It's not about being a comedian as a leader. It's about, do I create lightness? Do I create levity? Do I create an atmosphere of camaraderie and joy and, you know, comfort and safety for people, even when the work is hard? And so some of that weaponization could be a reaction to A very stifling environment, a very, you know, like, I don't feel like I have an inch to give when you ask me to do extra work or to stay late or to help a colleague with something because I'm so strapped and stressed within the environment we're in, you know, an empathetic leader could take a look at that and maybe there's something underneath that reaction of weaponized empathy that could be something they can control within their own setting the tone of the culture with the team. So kind of long winded, but I was trying to tie in all those pillars for you in that one concept. Mm

Teri Schmidt:

I appreciate that. And, I want to touch on something you just said. You know, what if someone may. not have, bad intentions, even though it seems like they're weaponizing empathy, how do you support leaders then in doing that? perspective? taking or perspective? getting, and using empathy to dig a little bit deeper while at the same time taking care of themselves and the team?

Maria Ross:

Yeah, so in the Empathy Edge, I, when I was talking about the leadership circle of the equation, leadership, culture, brand, I offered some actionable strategies to help leaders or even anyone individually strengthen their empathy. And that's actually the first step is you've sort of got to go to the empathy gym and shore up your empathy muscles. And, you know, That starts with, you know, that's why the first pillar is self awareness. The second pillar is self care. You might think, why are the first two pillars of empathy about me and not about other people? It's because if that foundation is weak, everything else falls apart, right? So you've got to be taking care of your own, you know, I know everyone uses this analogy, but it's true. Like your phone, your, your mobile phone is never going to work well if it's not fully charged up. And it doesn't matter what. happens or what's, what context, it's always going to be in a weakened state. And so really shoring up our own empathy muscle and then working on our self awareness and our self care fills up our, our well, and therefore we now are not exasperated when we get these weird requests, when we get the, you know, we don't, we don't see everything as entitlement. We see it as. Something that needs, you know, we need to have a conversation about, right. And just that perspective. I mean, we all can think about when we're hungry and tired, everything is a drama. Right. And so it's kind of the same thing as a leader is you're going to be more willing to get underneath of, of what's happening versus the reaction. Just like, Oh, can you just go away and make my life easier? Right. Because you're maxed out. So I think that's the key. And that's why the pillars are so important of understanding what can I control. The two first pillars. I can control myself and what my own growth mindset, what I'm willing to admit, what I'm willing to see about myself, what I'm willing to assess and how I'm going to recharge, right? Self care is not about manis and petties. It's about what is actually going to recharge you and help you see things in a different way. Um, and that can be something active. It doesn't have to be meditation or yoga or massage. It could be running, it could be tennis, it could be whatever, knitting. Um, But it just all goes back to that because that's the mindset, that's the presence and the mindfulness you're coming into the, I don't want to say the confrontation, but I guess the conversation with, and so if you start to see you're the common denominator of like, everyone's pissing you off today,

Teri Schmidt:

mm

Maria Ross:

their demands might not be unreasonable, but in your, State they are. And if you don't know what your triggers are, that's part of the self awareness. If you don't know what your triggers are, you don't even know what got you so defensive, what got you. And so it's really about, I spoke with one CEO who through a lot of work, she, she runs a really successful business with lots of different people with lots of different needs, right? And clients she's juggling across all of these different people. And she figured out that one of her triggers is when. Someone doesn't believe her and her reaction to that is to get angry, to feel like she has to have all her data and all this and all that when someone just doesn't take her experience as her experience. She now knows that's a trigger for her. And so if she has an employee or a client that says, but you said this was going to be delivered by this date. She now knows red flag, red flag. I know this is going to trigger me because I know I have an email. that says, and a contract that says we were going to deliver it on this date, not that date. She can better compose herself in the moment. But if she, she, she had so many issues before because she didn't realize that was a trigger for her. so it's about understanding those triggers so that when your people trigger you, you can take that step back. You can recognize it's coming. You can say, you're trying to distract me because you know, you know, that's a trigger for me. Maybe your people are smart enough to know what, you know, it's like a little, like your, your child, they know how to like push your buttons. Right. Yeah, so I think all of that combined, it's not not that, like, I don't want to leave with the message of, like, all of this is your fault as a leader. But some of this is about how you show up in the interaction and how you model in the interaction. So the question I get a lot is, but I'm dealing with someone who's not being empathetic to me. And It's that's not our problem to solve. Our problem to solve is how we show up in the, in the engagement and in the interaction so that we can model. This is how our relationship is going to go. And you can rail against that. You can get angry, but this is how I'm going to show up in this conversation.

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah. And that gets to the clarity part. I really love that part. And that pillar, particularly as we talk about weaponize and empathy, because you talked about the rules of engagement and setting those. Even when you are bringing someone on board, when you're hiring them, you know, just saying, this is how we operate. If there's a crisis, we may need you to work late. Or this is how we operate. We respect each other's time. So, yes, I know you need to walk the dog at lunchtime, but our meeting is starting at one and I expect everyone to be there. I think setting those rules of engagement upfront and giving that clarity also gives, our team members. Stability. And I know Gallup did research on what team members need from leaders. And one of the big core ideas with that was stability. So I see clarity and the sense of stability that people get from their leader as being very much intertwined.

Maria Ross:

Yeah, absolutely. And again, you know, kind of going back to that. Sometimes you need to look at the entitlement issue or the weaponizing empathy issue and say. Let's have a conversation. Like Terry, was I, you know, Let's be honest with each other. Was I clear that sometimes this would be expected of you? And they can say yes or no. And hopefully you have your ducks in a row that you can say, well, we specifically had, you know, a meeting about, we have a meeting about this once a month where we kind of go through our rules of engagement. We go through our team values and we iterate what those look like in action. So help me understand where you missed that connection. And that can be enough to dial someone back. That can be enough to go. They realize their part. In not understanding it, but you know, the example I gave of the memorandum of understanding from light show in the book, um, a creative company started by a former Disney. Um, Imagineer was all about here's, this is not just, this is what your job is. It's, this is how we treat each other. This is how we get work done. This is, you know, like as, as an example, one of the things are we challenge each other and it doesn't mean we're attacking. It means we're trying to make the idea better. Now, some people might go, well, of course, that's what people do when they challenge each other. That's an assumption. So if we're able to be super clear about like. If this happens to you, please don't take it personally. This is what we do in this culture is we are going to play devil's advocate. When you have an idea, we are going to do debriefs on Things that failed, we're going to do all of these things. It's a part of our culture. It's a part of our growth culture. And then the person, the employee has the opportunity to say, I'm either on board with this Or I'm not. And that's where it's like, respect that totally. But that's what the culture is here. So if you want me to support you in finding a new role in finding a different place to go, I'm happy to connect you with my network. I'm happy to write you a recommendation, but you have to put the responsibility back on the employee at some point to say, this is how we do things around here. Again, not threatening, but this is just, this is what we're doing. And if that doesn't fit your lifestyle or your values, we completely. understand. So what do you want to do next? I think what happens is as leaders, especially if you're a very empathetic leader, your first instinct is to make them happy. And that's a good instinct to have, but you don't want to get into people pleasing and making exceptions all the time. And, and just like, we need to be clear that this is who we are and this is what we stand for. And I say this, even as a brand strategist, Who's seen some cultures act appallingly in the marketplace, but you know what, you know what they stand for and now it's on you if you go there and you're unhappy because they have made a statement about how they're going to do business and whether they support diversity, equity, and inclusion, or whether they support employees having a voice or whether they support, you know, whatever we have to give more responsibility and agency back to our workers. On making the right choices for them. And again, I'm talking about people that are in privileged, you know, information worker positions. I know that there are some people that can't just quit their job or they can only work certain jobs. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the white collar labor force. And, um, but even if you have an hourly job and it's a horrible culture, you have to make a decision about if that is where you really want to stay. Or not, because they are telling you who they are. It's like a bad relationship, right? They're telling you who they are. And if you stay in that relationship, that's on you.

Teri Schmidt:

Yeah. And you know, the ramifications of your own situation, kind of the cost benefit and what is right for you. And one additional point. I think there is some flexibility for a leader. If someone comes in and says, well, I'm not really comfortable with that. For example, if the leader says. You know, we challenge each other. on this team and the person says I'm not really comfortable with the way I was challenged because of X, Y, Z. I think there's an opportunity to flex on that. As long as the leader knows the why. Why we're challenging, why that's part of our culture. They can work with the team to not make that an exception. But. make that a tweak to the team culture. That actually recognizes that it's a new team now that you have a new person coming on to the team.

Maria Ross:

Yeah. And that person can contribute. An additional layer to that, uh, memo of understanding or that that rule of engagement. Um, and again, that that's about where, like, these five pillars are meant for leaders, but they're also meant for anyone trying to be an empathetic colleague. So. In that example, that employee should really shore up self awareness and understand what is the trigger for them about being challenged. And if they do know that about themselves, being able to share that and bring, you know, that's what we mean when we talk about bringing our whole self to work, being able to share that and say, Hey everyone, I just want you to know, you know, whether I choose to disclose why or not, I have challenges around being challenged. And so here's what would help me. Um, I understand the importance of this, but here's how I can best receive that information. And then you can all work together on that. And again, that doesn't mean you're coddling someone. It means you're just adapting.

Teri Schmidt:

Definitely. And it reminds me of something that I'd love to touch on. Just briefly in your book, you mentioned citizenship behaviors. And, I've heard leaders struggle with that as well, particularly in the remote workplace. with the growth of the gig economy. You know, with less of their team members, caring about being good citizens for the organization. There doesn't seem to be as much loyalty to the organization. And because of that, you might not see those citizenship behaviors that maybe were more common in the past. So I'd love to hear your thoughts. on where we stand with those behaviors and, you know, are they on their way out? Is there, less commitment to the organization? Or is that something that, through the effective use of empathy, we can continue to encourage.

Maria Ross:

Well, I think if we're talking about citizenship behaviors that people believe everyone knows, and I'm using air quotes there, I think that is part of what I talk about in the new book about why empathy gets hard, because it depends on your perspective of what you deem a citizenship behavior, right? I think we can all fundamentally agree that being honest and not stealing is a good citizenship behavior. I don't think you're going to find across the generations or across different diverse groups that. People are going to disagree with that. I think where it gets a little fuzzier and squishier are things like professionalism or professional communication or even, you know, what is, what are work hours, right? So I think those are the conversations that we used to take for granted because everyone was, everything was being done the same way. And it was stifling a lot of creativity. It was leaving a lot of people, you know, Excluded from the workforce. It was leaving a lot of people feeling like they didn't belong or couldn't innovate. But we need to have those conversations. And that's where something like the clarity around a code of conduct or a rules of engagement or a memorandum of understanding or whatever you want to call it, a culture code, whatever, are so helpful because then it really puts everyone on the same page. I'm not just assuming that honor integrity and the customer is everything is important to you because it may or may not be, but We don't know that we've clearly communicated that as a citizenship behavior, then we can't really, again, we can't really hold people accountable for that. And we also have to understand that citizenship behaviors evolve. So when we're talking about professionalism, when we're talking about communication, communication has evolved over centuries. Like speech has evolved over centuries. So, you know, you've got these generations entering the workforce that talk differently, that look at hierarchy differently, that look at professionalism differently. So instead of relying on the like, well, everyone should know that. Maybe it's worth being blatantly obvious and, and documenting these things and discussing these things with people and not just making an assumption that like, well, when you go to work, don't, you know, everyone knows that you, you don't challenge your boss or everyone knows you can't just say no to a project that you've been asked to do do they? And I don't think it's a bad thing that that's evolving, right? Because we all benefit from that. Even those of us, you know, Gen Xers who. It's like, wow, that would have been great to be able to have that conversation and say, this, I love this story. Cause I used to work with a, with a guy in corporate and when I worked in technology and he was infamous for, he was good at his job, but he was infamous for, if somebody was giving him an additional project, he would just. Very respectfully counter his manager and say, totally can do that. Which of the seven priorities on my plate do you want me to drop? And his management was like taken aback by that. Isn't that better than someone just taking it on and dropping the ball later? So I think we all benefit from understanding that maybe citizenship behaviors have changed and being able to really articulate them and clarify them. So everyone is for sure on the same page.

And clarify the why behind them and investigate.

Maria Ross:

And the why? Yeah, right. Right. Right. And instead of, because we've always done things this way.

Teri Schmidt:

And that's right in line with, because I said, so. Well, excellent. I think everyone who's listening to know this, that I could talk about this. for days, but I do want to close with one question that we've been asking most of our guests recently. And that is what does strong leaders serve? Mean to you.

Maria Ross:

I think that the key in that phrase is serve. I think too many people get into leadership for a variety of insecure reasons because they seek. Respect. They seek admiration. They seek control. And those things in and of themselves are not bad, but we have to remember that leaders are there to serve the collective to serve the group and ensure that the mission is accomplished. Right? And so if we think about, um, They are not there to serve us. They are there to, to do the work and to be deployed as we deploy them into whatever their roles are, whatever we need, but it's our job to serve as a leader and to say, what do you need from me to succeed, not what are you going to do for me that I tell you to do today? And if you are coming to me with an issue or you're a squeaky wheel, It's not my job to shut you down. It's my job to understand what obstacle can I remove for you this week so that we collectively, Uh, achieve the mission. So strong leaders serve the strongest leaders know that they serve their people.

Teri Schmidt:

Well put, well, thank you for that. Now, as I mentioned, I know your book is coming out on September 10th. If people are listening to this, episode before September 10, 20, 24. I know that you have. some preorder goodies that they can get, at the book's website. I of course will link that URL in the show notes. But I wonder if you could just speak to a little bit, if they are listening before September 10th. and do pre-order your book. What can they get.

Maria Ross:

Yes. So, yeah, so the book is released on September 10th, but if you preorder and reserve your copy now through Amazon, through Barnes and Noble, through Porchlight, all of those links are on my website on, on the page, the empathy dilemma. com, but I'm giving bonuses to anyone that buys during the presale period. And that includes an invitation to a VIP virtual launch event. Where you'll be able to ask questions and dig deeper into the stories of the book. And so if they go to the empathy dilemma. com, they will find the links to purchase the book presale to order the book presale. They won't get the book till September 10th, but then there's a link to go to, to submit your receipt, and then you'll get all these bonus goodies unlocked for the presale. We'll include some other stuff that is TBD.

Teri Schmidt:

Like I said, you know, I was privileged to get an advanced copy of the book and I highly recommend it. That everyone go and pre-order it right now. It will be valuable for you not only in your leadership in the workplace, but also for your leadership in other areas of your life. Like, we talked about parenthood, however, you lead in the community, it's going to be valuable in all those arenas.

Maria Ross:

Those pillars are so good for parents too, honestly.

Teri Schmidt:

Well, beyond going to the empathy, dilemma.com, where else is the best place for people to get in touch with you? If they want to learn more about you or more about your work. I know that you do a lot of speaking and that you have other books. So where would you direct them?

Maria Ross:

Yeah. So I can do leadership trainings or ERG talks or keynotes, and people can find all that information at my main site, red dash slice. com. They can connect with me on Instagram at red slice Maria. I'm always posting good stuff there, or they can connect with me on LinkedIn, Maria J. Ross, but they have to personalize the note and say that they heard me on your show. Otherwise I may ignore it thinking it's someone trying to sell me something.

Teri Schmidt:

Exactly. we'll make sure that all of that gets included in the show notes as well, so that people can just click on that. And don't have to remember the websites if they're out running or doing something else as they're listening to this, but thank you again for your work for bringing empathy to the forefront and making people understand how important it is for. everything that they're trying to achieve as a business and as a leader. And thank you for coming on and spending time with us today.

Maria Ross:

Thank you so much for having me, Terry.

Teri Schmidt:

Well, I hope you enjoyed that and can leave today with at least one thing to think about or try to help you and your team utilize empathy more effectively in the workplace. And until next time. Lead with this quote by Maria in mind. The goal of empathy. is connection. Not necessarily conversion.